AUSTRALIAN POULTRY FORUM™

Hello from New Zealand.

I would like to breed Buff coronation sussex bantams but I am finding it difficult to get factual information and who has them or how to create them if I can't get em

Anyone here got em?

So the Coronation Sussex is basically a Light Sussex with a lavender gene.

The Buff Sussex has the buff colour with the black hackles like the Light Sussex.

Now here's the challenge ~ the lavender gene washes out the black to a lavender colour which makes the coronation colour, however it also washes out the buff colour to a very pale shade. If you wanted to make a Buff Coronation with the regular buff colour you'd need to start with a red base colour so that by the time it was washed out it would become buff!

The lavender trait is recessive and the red intensifier trait Mh (for mahogany) is dominant. You'd also need to do quite a bit of selection to tidy the colours up. Its certainly do-able in four or five generations.

would you start with standard size or bantam?
maybe the best i thought was std then bantanise them later or is that even harder?

Hi NZ,
You have set yourself an interesting challenge and I wish you luck and every success.
I like the Coronation Sussex but the combination of silver and lavender is not as contrasting as gold/buff and lavender.
The Porcelain Millefluer Belgians will give you an idea of the end result of the dilution effect of the lavender gene as it is a gold/lavender combination, in pointing this out Andrew is correct.
The task you set for yourself could well be to bantamise at the same time as you set your colour.
Now sitting here 'brainstorming" many thoughts come to mind as to where to begin.
Maybe a couple of small Coronation sussex 'pullets', set the pullet eggs and breed late,rear lean, the classic way to bantamise a standard breed.You could use a Light sussex bantam cock to reduce size and get a smaller Coronation fowl keeping your breed type, you may have other ideas on that here.
As 2nd mating to give you scope in the future I would suggest the following:
To introduce the red/gold/buff gene you may consider a buff columbian Wyandotte that will give you the colour and pattern but it would change the type, character and feather quality.My choice would be a Rhode Island Red bantam cock , you will need to breed out the yellow legs but that is a simpler challenge as white legs seem to dominate, maybe a RIR with pale legs as a starter.I suggest this as the type is very similar, brick shaped body and has a common feather texture, it is a deep red with 'rufus" genes (red intensifying genes) and it is has the same pattern gene responsible for the pattern of light sussex as is in RIR, it also carries the "E" (wheaten gene) responsible for extending the colour to the skin, it is this gene that gives you white/silver to the skin in light sussex and red to the skin of RIR's, it is missing in columbian Wyandottes and that is why they have slate/grey under colour/fluff.
It will take you longer but is more reliable in the long run if after you make any cross that you make a 'sib mate' ie mate brother to sister to 'set' what you have achieved and to increase your chances in this 2nd generation of finding birds with the desirable combination of characteristics you require. You then follow on with another 'developemental' mating, then sib mating again to stabilise/set your characteristics.etc etc.
A very good laymans book on poultry genetics is by "CAREFOOT" an English breeder/author, he explains it all clearly so you can understand it, it is not aimed at the genetisist or scientist but ordinary breeders.One example he gives and explains is turning a partridge Wyandotte into a Silver Pencilled Wyandotte, using partridge w'dotte hens and a dark Brahma bantam cock, the result was a very good show win ( BIS)at a speciality show with a bird that had NO silver pencilled genetics in it's makeup.
I share your enthusiasm and wish you luck.I hope my thoughts may inspire you to think outside the square in your quest.
Good luck.

Super info there oaklands. I cant begin to thank you i do like a challenge and i am in no hurry to achieve the results just as long as i start on the right track. I had thought of the pullet eggs as the way to bantamize them but at what stage or from the start?

Hi NZ,
I would continue to use pullets until I got down to the required size or I had hens laying a bantam /pullet sized egg.
Has anyone created in NZ Coronation bantams?If you could find them they would be a perfect way to start.
You will see another post on here re "Malays", my speciality although I am working on remaking "Cochins" and bantamising the Malays as well.
The original seed stock I got from South Australia in 1976 were not large, the cock was only 5&1/2 pound, the hens similar size,the original and only female to breed was a good layer.
With selection and adopting the proceedures I outlined there I was able to increase height by 50% and weight by almost treble that of the original cock and doubled the size/weight of the females.That was by sellecting large hen eggs, set early in the year and kept them warm and growing all winter then giving them the spring and summer to exercise and grow, the right high protien feed was also vital.
With the bantams we have to go in reverse, select small eggs, breed late (so they mature by the end of the season, before autumn/winter), rear lean (wheat & oats, not high protien grain/crumble) to discourage, growth but provide adequate nutrition, once they start to lay it usually stop/slows growth.
At some point you will get down to the size you require and at that point you can select hens or pullets for the brood pens and concentrate on refining the selection for the characteristics you need re type and colour.
During this process you will have to keep your eye on a number of things at once, as you conquer each point of selection you will be able to increase your attention on the remaining characteristics.The process may require making additional side matings as there will come individuals that are exactly what you need (but are to big etc)or excel in one area of selection that are to good to discard so you make matings to reintroduce the progeny into the mainstream down the track.
There are no specific breeding plans to do this as you have to go with what luck and mother nature give you to work with.I would suggest making a number of lines from the original matings early on, then continue each line as a separate breeding line, continueing the sib mating suggestion I made earlier but keeping it to each separate line or family.
This will eventually give you separate families within the umberella of the new colour variety, this way they will all be from the same foundation but not closely related one family to another, at best distant cousins and by using cousin to cousin matings later on you do not actually inbreed but this is only done once you have reached your goal.Do not inbreed to close to early as this will fix in the good and bad, other than that sib mating every 2nd generation in the developmental stage of your project.
It is going to require time and space to breed numbers to select from unless you find someone who shares your interest, then allow them to take some of the progeny after you have selected what you need and they can establish a daughter line or lines to yours which gives you a complimentary outline if and when it is ever needed.This way you can establish the new colour from a common genetic base/foundation but give you the greatest genetic diversity that is needed to establish soundly the new variety.
Cheers

On a totally different tack, but first a question
Are you trying to make an Australian Coronation (based on Lavender) or a British Coronation (based on Blue)?
I ask this because as I understand it from NZ friends you follow the British Standards in NZ.
The later would be more easily made as it would only need the introduction of the Blue gene into normal Buff Sussex bantams.
David

David makes a really good point, they would be so much easier to make using blue rather than lavender. Possibly the result would be more attractive too.

Again you make a good point Andrew.
The blue would be a good contrast and without the diluting effect of the lavender gene would be able to have a sound deep Buff/Red, however where the blue gene is present you would have more culls or those that were not exhibition specimens, you could expect 25 % black tailed buffs and 25 % white(splash) tailed buffs, the usual rules of "blues" would apply. The off colours could be used to breed the correct exhibition birds but like all blue fowls there would be variance in the expression of blue, from pale blue through to dark blue, almost black.
By using the lavender gene you would have a colour that would breed true, it was for that reason I suggested RIR to counter the effect of the lavender dilution gene.
It certainly would be a far simpler exercise if Buff and Coronation Sussex were both available , then it would be a simple exercise of crossing the two and selecting from the progeny to achieve your desired aims.
I guess NZ you have some decisions as to which way you wish to tackle this, taking into account what genetics are available to you and what your vision was/is.

Interesting topic I am getting a good lesson in genetics




HBG