Turkeyboy's views on colour

Turkeyboy · **Joined:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:31 pm **Posts:** 27

Hi,
I have been reading this topic with great interest. I find genetics very fascinating and interesting, I'm not a genetic whizz, But I would like to share my views on this colour mutation from my experience in breeding parrots.. I have read on other forums and spoken to a number of breeders here in Australia regarding this mutation.

I believe that this mutation is a "Recessive Bronze Fallow Mutation" and not a Cinnamon Mutation. All Fallow mutations are born with a distinct red ruby glow to the eyes and keep this eye colour for life. It also effects the feather colour. There are a number of fallow genes, Here are some eg:

Ashen or Smokey Fallow: Grey pigment reduced to light grey.
Dun Fallow: Grey pigment reduced to grey-brown
Bronze Fallow: Grey pigment reduced to brown
Pale Fallow: Grey pigment reduced to light brown

Cinnamon's have a plum solid coloured eyes and their feathers are a shade of brown. The Cinnamon gene normally follows the sex-link breeding pattern, But according to breeders I have spoken to and the information I have read on other forums, I believe this mutation to be a recessive mutation and not a sex-link mutation.

As normal looking parents (eg:Pearl) have produce these red eyed brown bird in both sex's.

Here is a breeding chart for recessive Fallow breeding: (/ = Split)

Fallow x Normal = 100% Normal/Fallow
Normal/Fallow x Normal = 50% Normal & 50% Normal/Fallow
Normal/Fallow x Normal/Fallow = 25% Normal,
50% Normal/Fallow & 25% Fallow
Normal/Fallow x Fallow = 50% Normal/Fallow & 50% Fallow
Fallow x Fallow = 100% Fallow

And here is a breeding chart for sex-linked Cinnamon mutation:

CINNAMON: (/ =Split)

Normal/Cinnamon cock x Normal hen = Normal & Normal/Cinnamon cocks &
Normal & Cinnamon hens

Normal/Cinnamon cock x Cinnamon hen = Normal/Cinnamon & Cinnamon cocks
Normal & Cinnamon hens

Cinnamon cock x Normal hen = Normal/Cinnamon cocks & Cinnamon hens

Normal cock x Cinnamon hen = Normal/Cinnamon cocks and Normal hens

Someone mention Silver birds with red eyes,,,They could be Ashen-Smokey Fallows. I have read that you should keep each fallow mutation seperated from one another as when you breed a Bronze Fallow to Ashen-Smokey Fallow you will get normals split for both fallow mutaions.

I would be interested in hearing other peoples comments on this colour.

Cheers
Shawn

Ace · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:49 am

Hey Shawn that is interesting PARROT info but this is a poultry forum and you are 100% on the wrong track. CINNAMON GUINEA FOWL ARE SEXED LINKED I did it in bold so it was clear. I have a few parrots also and you’re also wrong there, cinnamon in ringneck parrots is sexed linked as it IS in guinea fowl. I don’t know which breeders you have spoken too but if they agree with your parrot theory then they need to join this forum because they are way off too. If you search the forum you will find info that will help you learn about guinea fowl and how to breed them, good luck and welcome to the forum we can help you.

Ace

Ace · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:04 am

Guinea fowl international wrote:

The brown birds

Things get more complicated when we move onto the brown colours: buff, brown and chocolate. These colours are believed to be sex-linked, which means that for hens, you only need to have one gene for the bird to appear to be that colour, whilst for cocks, two copies of the gene need to be present (this is very confusing, and is explained very well on that peafowl colour site I referred to earlier-go back and have another read!). As you can imagine, this complicates breeding these buff-coloured birds a little but does not make it impossible. It also allows for a very interesting cross, which allows you to sex the chicks immediately on hatch. It works like this. We'll use the chocolate colour in this example.

A chocolate male has two copies of the chocolate gene, while a chocolate hen only needs one copy of that gene. So if you cross a chocolate male (two chocolate genes) with a different colour hen, such as a pearl-grey, all the resulting offspring will have one chocolate gene only. Which means that all hens that you hatch will be chocolate, and all cocks will be pearl grey. Which in turn means that you can sex your chicks at hatch, with 100% success.
http://www.guineafowlinternational.org/ ... netics.php

Ringneck parrot genetics for you http://ringneckmutations.com/Genetics.aspx note that Cinnamon (Sex linked) not the parrot genetics are relevant

drayllor · **Joined:** Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:36 pm **Posts:** 85

I have a couple of questions! Do you know if the mutation that causes a bird to be "Cinnamon" in this country (Aus) is the same as that for Dun/Brown/Buff elsewhere? Does anyone have any evidence to support that the mutation here is sex-linked? I think if I have read correctly that "Cinnamon" coloured birds have been bred out of Pearls & Lavenders, and therefore recessive gene involvement!

Has anyone bred only female Cinnamons from other than Cinnamon coloured birds (in numbers)?

Thanks in advance

Ace · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:26 am

Ace Ventura wrote:

CINNAMON GUINEA FOWL ARE SEXED LINKED I did it in bold so it was clear.
Ace

quoted just in case you missed it.

Of course it would be the same the proof is not needed drayllor hundreds of breeders over many decades have bred the sex linked cinnamon guinea fowl and I am one of those. You cannot reinvent the wheel sorry.

Have you got any evidence to support that, Quote you= "Cinnamon" coloured birds have been bred out of Pearls & Lavenders /end quote =?

Ace · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:48 am

I split this from the thread 'cinnamon guinea fowl' as its not relevant to that thread

drayllor · **Joined:** Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:36 pm **Posts:** 85

Ace Ventura, there is a lot that I skimmed, but no I didn't miss that quote.

And it has nothing to do with "re-inventing the wheel" as you have said. In my searches so far I have found a few saying that the factor for Cinnamon in Guineas is sex-linked, but nothing substantial to support it. Your simply saying in bold "CINNAMON GUINEA FOWL ARE SEXED LINKED" doesn't support adequately for me & isn't the kind of validation I have asked for! Maybe someone else has more to offer?

Quote:

Have you got any evidence to support that, Quote you= "Cinnamon" coloured birds have been bred out of Pearls & Lavenders /end quote =?

That Cinnamons have been bred out of "other than Cinnamon" coloured birds indicates recessive state, not necessarily sex-linkage!

If so many breeders including yourself have bred so many Cinnamons & found same to be sex-linked, then providing something to adequately support same shouldn't be a problem should it?

Cheers

Ace · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:55 am

You’re missing the point neither I nor any other breeder has to prove anything, all around the WORLD they are sex linked just look at the quote from the Guinea fowl international and there are dozens of web site that state the same thing. So you and turkeyboy need to prove what you are saying with cold hard facts and you have not.

So again I will ask you for cold hard fact to your Quote= "Cinnamon" coloured birds have been bred out of Pearls & Lavenders /end quote =? Please show me a study report that supports that cinnamons were bred out of Pearl & Lavender as you state, not a theory, not speculation, I want to read cold hard facts please.

GascoyneGuineas · **Joined:** Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:48 pm **Posts:** 36

What a load of pie in the sky turkeyboy a fallow guinea fowl what next a double factor spangle guinea fowl? this is a joke right? has to be. As for cinnamon well they are sexed linked, everyone knows that, end of story

Turkeyboy · **Joined:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:31 pm **Posts:** 27

Hi Ace,
Thanks for your reply, I have afew questions for you, As you have experience with breeding this colour.

Do your Cinnamon have ruby red eyes with a distinct red glow or do they have dark plum coloured eyes?

When you mate a Cinnamon cockbird to a Normal (eg:pearl or lavender). Are you getting all Cinnamon females?

Why are breeders producing "Cinnamon - (brown - ruby red eye birds)" from normal coloured parent of both sexes?

Also were did I say in my post that CINNAMON is not a sex-link colour? Are you referring to this quote: "The Cinnamon gene normally follows the sex-link breeding pattern". The website link you gave for Indian Ringnecks is very basic. Bronze fallows ringnecks in some country are often referred to as being "Recessive Cinnamon"

Look forward to your reply

Cheers
Shawn

PS- Why did you move my post to another topic,,,I'm discussing "Cinnamon Guinea Fowls". Please put it back to the original posting,,,I'm in title to my views as you are to yours....

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