Black rhode islands

Gillian · **Joined:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:00 am **Posts:** 4

Do the rhode island breed come in an all black form in the pure sense?

Rhode Red · **Posted:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:14 pm

Unfortunately No.
The standard colours are Red and White only.
I must have to admit have considered having a go a trying to breed a black version but never tried. Possibly something for when I retire in about 30 years.
Rhode Red

andre · **Joined:** Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:21 pm **Posts:** 612

Question? Are Rhode Island Whites the same breed as Rhode Island Reds or are they completely separate? My understanding and it might be wrong, is that they are completely separate, have different origins and have somewhat different standards, other than the obvious colour difference.

Rhode Red · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:22 am

You are correct originally the two colours were considered a separate breed i.e "It was admitted to the American Standard of Perfection in 1904. The White followed in 1922 as a separate breed" as stated on the RI Club of Aust site. In relation to the standards the Whites have 10 point mores (73 to 63) allocated to type than the reds. Both are bred to be the samr type, hence the same breed.

In reecent years the quality of both the large whites (single and Rose comb) and Bantams have improved greatly. This has been thanks to the efforts of a number of breeder throughout Australia. Once the white were of a much lower quality to the point they really lacked the correct type, but not so today. It is not uncommon for the white pushing and on occassion beating the Reds for champion Bird of Show.

As with most breeds with a number of colours not all are always breed in the same area, but they are bred to a standard type.

I would be interested in knowing if others can comment on the origins of their breeds and the specific colours. A good example would be Pekin's. How many different breeds have been crossed to produce the variety of colours, and still they don't breed true.

Rhode Red

OakA · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:37 am

I'd have to agree with you Rhode Red that some improvements have been made.
To see a white these days they have the true breed type, character and expression, at times no need to look past the head to identify it as a Rhode Island.
I'm afraid though the situation is a bit like "the haves and the have nots", a great divide between the best and the also rans.
One characteristic that I have seen decline is the horn shading on the beak and legs, so often a yellow leg devoid of the horn shading is seen and put up.
Pity that in a lot of breeds some of these unique characteristics are being lost, either because breeders/exhibitors don't know or it has been placed in the "too hard" basket and less than the required ideal is accepted.
It is a common situation in a number of breeds and the true breed type, character and standard requirements are being lost.
I've heard comments like,"no-one else has such and such so I don't worry", I'm afraid I do and when judging try as far as possible to put up a fowl as close to the ideal as possible and in any commentary point out to new breeders/exhibitors the standard requirements the exhibits are lacking and in danger of losing.

Rhode Red · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:28 am

I agree with the comment with the horn colour in the legs and the variance of quality of the birds. In previous posts I have commented on the growth pattern of Rhodes and how important it is for maintaining a good diet during these stages.

I think part of the issue goes back (pre Aust Std) to the use of the British standard in judging in many show hence breeding, by allowing for pure yellow legs. The issue I find is that many of the "older lines" still have this trail well entrenched. There is also a lack of knowledge of some of our new breeders, in relation to the links between some of the different traits. I note the Aust Std is based on the American std and leg colour is described as "Shanks and toes: rich yellow tinged with reddish horn".

I have worked very hard to ensure that my pullets have good horn colour and now I have males with horn colour. Not the easiest thing to get in both sexes as the trait is dominate in females more so than males. (A bit like males generally carry more black than females hence the better marking in the wings). Many of my cockerels have dark or horn spurs and even toe nails, with a touch of horn on their toes, this is the needed trait to get the colour in the pullets. In addition my chicken at day old have dark beaks not yellow.

In my early days (mid 1990's) I once had a well respected judge comment of one of my males having dark toe nails and spurs, unfortunately it was that is was the incorrect colour and I needed to ensure they were yellow. I rang and checked with a number or respected breeders after that and we all now know what their answer was. I don't want to judge bash, but just point out that this trait has been incorrectly judged for a long time.

All this helps to keep sound deep colouring, and actually helps with having yellow skin. This is often a breed trait overlooked on the show bench.

Rhode Red

OakA · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:59 am

I agree the American standard should have taken precidence all along as they are a breed of American origin.
Many of these traits were/are hard to maintain, the test of a good breeder who knew his standard and how to achieve the required characteristics as stated in the breed standard.
I don't think it is a case of judge bashing but breeders who know no better become judges who know no better.They come in young and keen, have a few wins and know it all, then start to judge and interpret the standards to thier understanding, not what was originally intended.
It is not a unique situation to RI's but many breeds, spots on Ancona legs, fish tails in Mediteranean breeds, shocking combs in Orps, eye colour in Malay and Indians, black soles in Croads, Orps and Australorps or no pink/red in the scales of Langshans etc etc etc .
I started judging at 16 but grew up with OEG, that was my first judging appoint.My advantage was I liked all breeds and was like a sponge when I had the opportunity to spend time with some renowned breeders of years past and sat ears open and mouth shut and took in all they were telling me.
I have had new/young breeders tell me I'm wrong on certain points in a breed I have had for 50 yrs, I learnt from a breeder now long dead who would be well over 100 if still with us, he was in touch with older breeders and the information was passed first hand for well over 150 yrs but the new chum knew better.
You can't compete with that sort of closed minded mentality.
An old breeder once told me thier are poultry keepers and poultry breeders and some will never be breeders as long as thier behind points to the ground.Sound advice and so true, unfortunately.

Gillian · **Joined:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:00 am **Posts:** 4

Wow you guys know you rhode Islands very good reading thank you

Gillian · **Joined:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:00 am **Posts:** 4

So a further question please, if one was to try and breed the black how would one go about it?

OakA · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:07 am

NOW, there you do have a question to ponder !!!!!
I would ask Rhode Red and Andrewschooks for thier input.
One Rhode Red has said he has considered it and is a breed specialist so has some ideas maybe on which way to go about it and Andrewschooks for his understanding of genetics.
For myself I wonder that it could be done, certainly not easily.
If successful you would then have to gain recognition of the Rhode Island breed club, they are an old and conservative club and you are sure to meet resistance if they would even consider it.
I wonder also where the black gene will come from, any breeds that come to mind would be totally unsuitable for either type or feather texture.The only one that comes to mind with possibilities is maybe a black from a barred Plymouth Rock breeding programme, pick a breeder of the largest fowls available, you will have a problem maybe with leg colour and certainly with ghost barring on the black plumage.
To this I would mate the best WHITE Rhode Island that is true to type in every way.This way you are only breeding black to white and avoiding the red gene so unwanted in black fowl.
What I will say is you have to embody all the true and distinguishing Rhode Island breed characteristics.Things like head and comb, texture and expression ,breed character is strong in a Rhode Island and the head is the first place you see it, body type and shape, feather texture, they have a strong hard feather for a soft feather breed, you don't want soft fluffy feather, you will need to retain the size of deep brown eggs and you will have to have the horn shading on legs and beak for it to even remotely resemble a Rhode Island.
To do anything less than produce a perfect Rhode Island in black, you will have just another black xbred fowl.

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