NEW MUTATION - BANDED PIED GOLDEN PHEASANT by PEACOCKS AUST

Texas · **Joined:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:52 pm **Posts:** 44

menil wrote:

Selective breeding may stabilize a mutation but it is extremely unlikely to create one.

Absolute rubbish

If your friend is an expert and he agrees with you then its back to collage for him. I can tell you and your friend that selecting birds with genetic traits such as split or dominance to reinforce or create something new IS THE ONLY WAY as we should know here in the states we have created MANY mutations. After 40 years you should know the most basic rules of genetics as selection is the most basic of all. After reading both your posts I doubt you have any ware near 40 years experience in poultry genetics, I doubt you have any, sorry it has to be said.

parvo · **Joined:** Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:39 pm **Posts:** 735

Guys,

I believe you're both correct.

Selection is the only way to establish a trait which is inherited by multiple alleles ( ie multiple places on the chromosome), rather than single point mutations. For example a colour mutation which involves a single gene change on a chromosome means that the bird either has the mutation or it has not got it. Therefore by looking at the bird, it has the colour or it hasn't- there's no partial colour. An example (not poultry i'm sorry)- is the blue Indian Ringneck parrot. The normal colour is green. A single mutation in a chromosome results in the blue colour, not green. In this example you need both chromosomes in a pair( all chromosomes exist as pairs) to have this mutation for the bird to be blue. A bird with only one chromosome containing blue mutation will appear normal green ( not part blue or light blue), as will a bird with no mutation.

However, other mutations involve mutations at multiple points on a chromosome which all add to give a colour change in the bird. Therefore a bird with only a few mutated points will have partial colouring.

This to me appears to be what is happening with PA's gold banded goldens- by selecting for birds with more yellow and mating these together, you increase the likelihood of producing birds with even more yellow. Eventually a yellow bird will hopefully result.

This is an extremely oversimplified explanation. ( I haven't mentioned how the mutation is inherited or expressed eg dominant vs recessive vs partial dominance etc etc). But I hope you get the drift.

So it is technically correct that selection does NOT CREATE a mutation- but by selection you can certainly fix or further the mutations and hence you can create a new colour morph. Sometimes these mutations start off as only a few differently coloured feathers- but these can be the starting point for creating a new colour in a bird.( sometimes, different coloured feathers are caused by nutritional deficiencies or metabolic diseases- these are not inherited and the birds either moult out or die!)

Clear as mud???? I hope not.

Parvo

Texas · **Joined:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:52 pm **Posts:** 44

If you have a pheasant with a single white feather is that in its self a mutation = NO its a single random feather pattern if you then SELECTIVLY BREED that offspring to the parent and the resulting off spring have 50 white feathers is that a mutation = NO if you then breed 2 birds with one copy of the gene and the resulting offspring let’s say 5 offspring and 3 have 50 feathers and 2 have 100 feathers in that a mutation = YES. Let’s remember we are talking about poultry here and specifically pheasants not parakeet’s two very different gene behaviors. As I have already said the only way to breed a TRUE mutation in to select your pairings and not hope for the best

Texas · **Joined:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:52 pm **Posts:** 44

This is an excerpt from Dan Cowell web site http://gbwf.org/pheasants/golden_yellow.html
Initial breedings were with a normal hen and normal heterozygous chicks were produced. The heterozygous females were then bred back to the mutant male. By the middle of the 1950s, the yellow mutants were breeding true.

Selective breeding is the only reason why we have the yellows, let me repeat that, Selective breeding is the only reason why we have the yellows

Selective breeding will be the only reason why you will have them or in PA's case has them, instead on being negative towards your top breeder try being positive & appreciative & learn.

parvo · **Joined:** Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:39 pm **Posts:** 735

Texas,

On the website, it states that the Yellow Golden mutation you have in the US & Europe came from a single mutant male which was mated to a normal hen and heterozygous chicks were produced. These heterozygous chicks would appear normal, but carry a single copy of the Yellow gene in one of each chromosome pair. A female heterozygous chick was mated back to its father and from there the mutation was established. The resultant offspring from this mating would theoretically be 50% Golden and 50% heterozygous or "split" for Golden. This is a simple autosomal recessive mode of inheritance- in fact exactly the same as the blue mutation of the Indian Ringneck Parrot example I gave earlier. No one "created" this mutation. It occurred by chance. However, Professor Ghigi selected appropriately, set up the right breeding combinations, and eventually established the mutation- yes by selection.

This is a different mutation to what I believe PA is establishing in Australia, if the Banded Pied is being used to create a golden mutation- in this case it has to be mutations at multiple sites or "loci" on the chromosome, not just one as in your bird. It is on this basis that I argued the "one feather" theory ie birds with one or a few yellow feathers have been selectively mated together to develop the banded pied and so on. This would be a totally different mode of inheritance.

If I am wrong about this assumption, then please correct me PA.

No one is criticising PA for what he's doing. It's great work and deserves the utmost of respect because it takes a long time to establish a new mutation as well as lots of space, effort, money etc.

We would all love to see these birds in this country.

But it's good to have this sort of discussion.

Parvo :-D

Texas · **Joined:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:52 pm **Posts:** 44

It seems to be confusion as to what you call a mutation, you see one bird does not constitute a mutation here, it’s just one. We recognize a mutation as a mutation when it breeds true to that mutation. It is widely believed the original yellow was not a random event but a breeder’s work by selective breeding and that it did not just appear as all yellow but a progression of stages and Ghigi stabilize the mutation by again selective breeding as in father to daughter, mother to son. We only recognize a mutation if there is far more than one bird and only if it breeds true I would have thought australia would have been similar

menil · **Joined:** Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:31 pm **Posts:** 46

Thanks Parvo , At last someone else can see what I am talking about .Maybee we are not as backward down under as you in the USA may think Texas.To the best of my knowledge their is no test (ie DNA) to determin if a bird is carrying a recesive gene ,and their certainly is no visual difference so how the hell do you propose to select the birds that you will pair together to produce a new mutation. I cant explain how the first Yellow golden appeared 50 years ago nor can I explain how the hundreds of mutations in the parrot world appeared .If I could I would be breeding BLUE golden pheasants now and maybee Texas would have a BLACK one as well .I also wish to reiterate that at no time do I wish to undermine PA 's work with the banded pied but I beleive they are a whole different ball game to the Yellows .NSW pheasants your comments are not worthy of a responce .

Texas · **Joined:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:52 pm **Posts:** 44

I won't waste any more time, I have explained the facts to you menil of down under but you have far too limited knowledge of genetics to understand.

watson96 · **Posted:** Sat May 29, 2010 1:56 pm

I for one don't care how pa breeds them really I just care that he has. The banned pieds are sensational and a BIG pat on the back to PA that’s what’s important. Menil I think what Texas has referred to by negative is all your post about this subject seem to be negative as in you don't believe this and that. Ok you don't believe, so be it, let’s move on....................

menil · **Joined:** Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:31 pm **Posts:** 46

Texas. If you were to go back and read your excerpt posted earlier you would see that Professor Ghigi was presented with one male Yellow golden this bird appeared in its current form and he was clever enough to stabilize the mutation with selective breeding .Exactly the point I have made all along . To you I may have limited genetic knowledge but I have no problem understanding the facts as presented to me .

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