Black La Fleche

Tahir · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:50 pm

great news

lets hope they turn out to be very good specimens.
make sure you get tonnes of pics :-D

Lou · **Joined:** Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:12 am **Posts:** 387

I'm curious, I may have missed it written somewhere :-?

but when you cross the 2 breeds it's obvoiusly because of the lack of numbers :?:

& the next generation & I supose the next few what do you breed them with & how long before you consider what you have bred from the X's pure. Sorry for all the questions but it's a very interesting to me & I supose a very frustrating position for you as a breeder? but definatley a challenge

byhookorchook · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:01 pm **Posts:** 571

Lou wrote:

I'm curious, I may have missed it written somewhere :-?

but when you cross the 2 breeds it's obvoiusly because of the lack of numbers :?:

& the next generation & I supose the next few what do you breed them with & how long before you consider what you have bred from the X's pure. Sorry for all the questions but it's a very interesting to me & I supose a very frustrating position for you as a breeder? but definatley a challenge

Lou, everyone will give you a different opinion about what is a pure breed and for how many generations it must be bred true before it is a breed.

This is a progrees in work. If we can get individuals of the breed to look identicle, be equal of the standard, whether USA of UK, gain a following within the poultry fancy and bench a number of individuals at show through a variety of breeders, then it is my opinion that we are across the line.

These were not crossed for lack of numbers. The LaFleche never got to Australia and had to be recreated, just like Brahma, Cochin, Sultan. Those nemed breeds have found acceptance already.

There will always be some that will not accept La Fleche and have their own opinions. I for one couldn't care less for it. This is a more significant work than putting two Wyandottes together to make a Crele and then calling that a new breed. If this were so easy, it would already have been done a long time before now.

Come Xmas when some La Fleche get out within the fancy, I will be happy then to discuss with other breeders how this has been done, using what breeds at different stages. I might even add a chapter on why it took so long and where it is possible to find other individuals of my line that were not sourced directly through me. That would indeed make some interesting reading!

Peacocks Australia · **Joined:** Wed Jan 02, 2002 9:14 am **Posts:** 310755

Great work Frank, the Photos look excellent. Look forward to the end result. We need more breeders to take on the hard yards as you have done, so we take our hat off to you or A.P.F cap in this case :-D

Thanks
P.A :lol:

byhookorchook · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:01 pm **Posts:** 571

Appreciate the comment Peacocks. I'm only sorry they weren't ready in time for Canbrra this time around.

Lou · **Joined:** Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:12 am **Posts:** 387

Wow, another day not wasted, you are very dedicated & I wish you luck. I didn't realise it was a recreation of the breed, at the end you will have something to crow about & stick it into the critics with the results.

I will have to do some homework, this is all very interesting, have you written down anywhere on the list your story from the beginning?

Peacocks Australia · **Joined:** Wed Jan 02, 2002 9:14 am **Posts:** 310755

Hi Frank, well the next one will be here before we know it

they seem to come around so quick :-D

Thanks
P.A :lol:

byhookorchook · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:01 pm **Posts:** 571

Planning now for 2012 as I "reckon" so many others are also after such a great event. The next time I plan to exhibit the following in numbers to run their own class. Gold & Black Phoenix, Yokohama, Sicilian Buttercups in Brown, Black, Silver and Gold, La Fleche in Brown & Black. Other breeds a bonus if I have time.

Lou, when I set out to recreate a breed it was not the La Fleche. Actually it was the Sicilian Buttercup and one of the outcomes of this work was an anomoly created in the duplex comb.

The recipe of recreating La Fleche incuded crested breeds.The characteristics of crest-horn-open fontenal are all closely linked in the same general area of the genetic string. In the batch hatching this weekend I would expect some poorly formed La Fleche with small horns and an immature crest, the forerunner of Crevecuers. Anyone associated with the Crested Breed Club that can convince me that they have the right knowledge to work up to the Crevoceur may ask me for the misfires as they will be excellent towards that variety.

Slit nostril small horn, normal nostril large horn is a characteristic of the genetic makeup not yet explained. But for those wishing to recreate the Crevoceur, a fortuitous outcome. The incidence of a crest another probability with slit nostril and small comb, also associated with open fontenal with the crest being the shock absorber to protect the head from undue impact. (pecking)

Much effort spent in research on the genetics through the British Library, Pubmed and various books. You have to have a kind of grit to get to the end as I can tell you, unless the first time people see what you're doing is perfect, all you are doing in their eyes is rubbish. In chicken genetics WYSINWYG ( what you see is not what you get). Until it is, the breed is not pure.

oozcorpse · **Joined:** Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:15 am **Posts:** 2715

VERY few have any idea of just HOW MUCH Frank has done over the years with his chosen breeds and in his recreating the Buttercup and 'by association' the La Fleche

Frank = I am exceedingly glad that you now have others that are interested in your work – I for one – as you know - have been interested for quite a while now and always enjoy our discussions – especially when they get so rowdy I am surprised that we aren’t asked to leave at ‘the local’

Slightly off topic but as it was mentioned in this post still within the range of conversation = the Brahma = the Light did make it to OZ giving at least some small measure of the ‘real deal’ to the current day Brahma – and we exported several birds back to Asia a couple of years ago = that is hard work paper trail wise!
All the other colours [until last year before he became ill for the last time – and even then he was finishing off another new colour!] can be traced back to Lance having a hand in their development – only 1 of the 3 lines of Partridge are traced back to Lance tho [he did a line with Gold, Blue, Silver all genetically related] = amazingly 3 people started developing them simultaneously without the knowledge the others were also developing them until they all entered some of their Partridge in the National Show [that was interesting :-D

seeing the differences in the lines ] = 3 different lines giving good diversity in the Partridge :-D

It was Lance that found the documentation verifying the Lights were imported – can’t remember when that was tho [doesn’t suprise you it was Lance that found it hey!!]

byhookorchook wrote:

I'd like to see those with Phoenix make more effort to get them to proliferate. It is very difficult with just a few people out in the open.

Bourke wrote:

Good point, shadow breeders, lots of them.

Agree with both byhook and Bourke – I have people with some of my PHX and yet the bulk of them are ‘shadows’ = just glad I’ve been ‘out of the closet’ re my PHX since day dot :-D

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